"Francisco opened the path and Leo XIV makes it passable": the perspective of a Peruvian cardinal who knew both popes

CHICLAYO.– Cardinal Pedro Barreto Jimeno, archbishop emeritus of Huancayo, a Jesuit, knew Pope Francis very well, and also the former bishop of this city, Robert Prevost. In an interview with LA NACION on the eve of the Pope's stop this Sunday in Pucallpa, deep in the Amazon rainforest, Barreto, a key figure in REPAM (Pan-Amazonian Ecclesial Network), compared the two popes. And he dared to define Francis as a "bulldozer" and his successor, Leo XIV, as a "motor grader": "they do not compete, they complement each other."–Pope Leo wanted to set foot on Amazonian soil again by going to Pucallpa this Sunday: what is the significance of this visit?–It is an eloquent gesture of continuing what Pope Francis began. The Church in the Amazon perceives the continuity of the commitment to accompany indigenous peoples in the defense of life and the care of the territory, threatened by deforestation and illegal mining, which are ever increasing. He will listen to the anguish and hopes of the indigenous peoples, especially the pain over the violence affecting girls, boys, adolescents and young people. What happened in Condorcanqui, in northeastern Peru, where Awajún and Wampis indigenous girls suffered sexual violence at the hands of their teachers, who were precisely the ones responsible for educating and protecting them. His presence will remind us of Pope Francis when he visited Puerto Maldonado in January 2018, and stated that the Amazon is a sacred land before which we should remove our sandals like Moses. Pope Leo XIV will reaffirm the Church's commitment to continue accompanying Indigenous Peoples in the defense of life, of their dignity as persons, and in the care of the Amazon. Cardinal Pedro Barreto Jimeno, archbishop emeritus of Huancayo–In your personal dialogue with Pope Leo XIV, what impression did his way of implementing the process of renewal of the Church in the Amazon, initiated by Pope Francis since the creation of REPAM and CEAMA (Amazonian Ecclesial Conference), leave on you?–This question leads me to highlight a gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church: the newness and continuity in the succession of two Bishops of Rome. I have been able to know both personally. They are two Popes different in personality and character. But firm and determined in what is essential: the following of Christ, the renewal of the life and mission of the Church. The two knew each other and worked very closely during the last two years (2023-2024), prior to the death of Pope Francis (April 21, 2025) and the election of Pope Leo XIV (May 8, 2025).–The two American popes...–One Latin American and the other pan-American. Both with the determination to proclaim the good news of Jesus. They do not compete. They complement each other. One sows the Word of God, the other continues sowing and God makes it bear fruit in the Church. That is the most genuine expression of unity in diversity!–In what sense?–Francis was the pope of the Kairós (opportune time) who emphasized charisma, as a free gift of the Holy Spirit. That is why he spoke of a Church going out on mission, the primacy of discernment over the norm, synodality as listening to the Holy Spirit in the People of God. The Church is born of Pentecost. It is not a human project. Leo XIV is the pope of Chronos (measurable time) who is emphasizing the Institution. An Ecclesial Body is needed to safeguard the charisma as a gift of the Holy Spirit. Without charisma, the Institution becomes empty, lifeless, and does not endure in history. Without Institution, charisma becomes a fleeting emotion, without continuity and effective union among the members that make it up. Pope Leo XIV arrives to preside over a Mass in Pampas de Pimentel, near Chiclayo, Peru Rodrigo Abd - AP–Can you explain further?–Jesus is "the way" (John 14:6) of every baptized person in the Catholic Church. With this image we continue the journey of Jesus in history. The Council of Trent (1545-1563) was more doctrinal and disciplinary. It guided the Church for four centuries. The Second Vatican Council (1962-1965) emphasized its pastoral mission and sought to promote the moral and spiritual renewal of the life, organization and language of the Catholic Church to bring it closer to the humanity of the 20th century. Faced with this immense conciliar task, Francis was the bulldozer: he opened the way, broke down the walls. Strong and impetuous. Firm in principles. Unsettling in his proposals. Courageous in defining the mission of the Church. He pointed out the way with his gaze fixed on Christ and on the guidelines of the Second Vatican Council. He sought the renewal of the Church to make it more effective, as an Apostolic Body, in its pastoral mission in today's world.–And his successor, born in Chicago and Peruvian by adoption?–Leo XIV is the motor grader. He smooths the path that has been traced so that it may be passable for every baptized person in the Church and for people of good will. And he does so gentle in manner, firm in principles. His tone of voice, his words, his disarmingly disarmed way of communicating. Firm and direct in the proposed goal: he does not renounce the principles of the renewal of the Church. On the contrary, he reaffirms the synodal spirituality of communion, participation and mission. Francis convened a Synod on Synodality that took place in two sessions (October 2023 and 2024). The Final Document was approved by him at the end of the second session. Cardinal Robert Prevost participated in both sessions as Prefect of the Dicastery for Bishops. In this way, God, in his providence, prepared the one who today continues the process of pastoral renewal of the Church in fidelity to the Second Vatican Council.–What effect do you think this visit will have on Peru?–We hope that his presence among us will be a renewed impetus for the evangelization of our peoples, which includes a social ministry that accompanies those who suffer; that listens to the voices of the coastal, Andean and Amazonian peoples; that promotes solidarity and community organization for the common good. His visit will help us break silences, overcome indifference and return to what is essential because: in the encounter with Jesus Christ joy is born and reborn. He will remind those with political, economic and social responsibilities that all authority finds its meaning in service to the common good. He will encourage us not to resign ourselves to poverty, inequality, corruption, violence and exclusion. Thus we will build together a disarmed and disarming peace. Pope Leo XIV departs at the end of a prayer vigil at the National Stadium in Lima Andrew Medichini - AP–You collaborated closely with Pope Francis on the Amazonian synodal journey, the Pan-Amazonian Ecclesial Network – REPAM and the Amazonian Ecclesial Conference – CEAMA. Pope Leo XIV knows Peru well and was bishop of Chiclayo. How does that experience mark this trip?–Pope Leo has a deep bond that unites him to Peru, to its peoples and communities. He knows the coast, the highlands and the Amazon. However, he will find a country increasingly battered and beaten down, with an intensification of conflicts, social, political and religious polarization; the growth of violence, organized crime, corruption, inequalities, the situation of youth and the challenges we face within our own Church, which weaken our democratic coexistence and trust in institutions. We are a country without hope, without horizons that mobilize us. That is why the presence and message of Leo XIV encourages the Peruvian people and the Institutions to create a space for disarmed and disarming dialogue that respects the dignity of every human person and seeks the common good, in favor of justice and peace, placing first the poorest and most excluded of society. By Elisabetta Piqué